My First Tridentine Mass
Today I attended my first Tridentine Mass! I drove a little distance to get to a small rural church that offers the Latin Tridentine Mass every Sunday at noon, and I was very happy to be there. It was quite different from the Novus Ordo Mass offered at my parish church, where we do not kneel (we sit in chairs, not pews), clap to contemporary Christian music, hold hands during the Our Father, and applaud the cantor following reception of the holy Eucharist (!). The atmosphere today was not so different, however, from a small Roman Catholic church I frequented before entering the Church (because it was close to where I was working at the time) where the Novus Ordo Mass was celebrated with reverent solemnity: silent prayer before mass, kneeling, and the singing of the Ave Maria at the conclusion of the celebration. I have missed going to mass at that little church.
Since this was my first Latin Tridentine Mass, I do have some questions. Obviously, I expected the mass to be in Latin, but what I didn't expect was that I would not be able to hear the priest very well....he was not "miked" except during the Gospel reading the the homily. Is this usual? I followed along in the missal as best I could (occasionally I was able to pick up a word here or there and able to find my place) and once I got over my shock that I couldn't hear much, I appreciated what was going on through the actions of the priest and servers (two adult men). I suppose the fact that I couldn't hear much added to the mystery, and I could read the English translation in my missal.
This was a Low Mass with no music. The congregation did not speak much at all other than a few responses. We did not pray the Creed or the Our Father together as a congregation, these seemed to be spoken only by the priest and perhaps the servers. Again, is this usual for the Tridentine Mass?
Here is my main question, and I know there is a lot of information on the web to read about Vatican II and the changes to the rubrics, but maybe one of my readers could answer this for me in simple layman terms. Why isn't the Novus Ordo mass exactly like the mass I participated in today, word for word, with the one exception that it is in English rather than Latin? I guess what I mean is that I understand that what I participated in today is the traditional Mass in all its mystery and reverence, and the wording of the liturgy was beautiful and meaningful. It showed me how far the Novus Ordo Mass has gone to making the mass more of a friendly "service" than a holy mystery and heavenly sacrifice in which we all participate.
Hoo boy, now that I've written that out, I realize that is a Big Question! I suppose my question has to do with the translation of the missal after Vatican II, which is now being revised to more closely resemble the original? I really do still have so much to learn. I also know that this topic can be extremely contentious, and I don't enjoy angry debate or put downs of any kind. If this is a topic that makes you angry, dear reader, then perhaps you might choose not to comment here. What I am asking for is some understanding, as a new Catholic, of how we got to where we are, which seems very far from the Tridentine Mass, but I am not asking for critiques of Vatican II or the Novus Ordo Mass.
Charitable and respectful insights appreciated!
Since this was my first Latin Tridentine Mass, I do have some questions. Obviously, I expected the mass to be in Latin, but what I didn't expect was that I would not be able to hear the priest very well....he was not "miked" except during the Gospel reading the the homily. Is this usual? I followed along in the missal as best I could (occasionally I was able to pick up a word here or there and able to find my place) and once I got over my shock that I couldn't hear much, I appreciated what was going on through the actions of the priest and servers (two adult men). I suppose the fact that I couldn't hear much added to the mystery, and I could read the English translation in my missal.
This was a Low Mass with no music. The congregation did not speak much at all other than a few responses. We did not pray the Creed or the Our Father together as a congregation, these seemed to be spoken only by the priest and perhaps the servers. Again, is this usual for the Tridentine Mass?
Hoo boy, now that I've written that out, I realize that is a Big Question! I suppose my question has to do with the translation of the missal after Vatican II, which is now being revised to more closely resemble the original? I really do still have so much to learn. I also know that this topic can be extremely contentious, and I don't enjoy angry debate or put downs of any kind. If this is a topic that makes you angry, dear reader, then perhaps you might choose not to comment here. What I am asking for is some understanding, as a new Catholic, of how we got to where we are, which seems very far from the Tridentine Mass, but I am not asking for critiques of Vatican II or the Novus Ordo Mass.
Charitable and respectful insights appreciated!
Those are good questions that I would love to hear the answers to as well. But I have to say your Ordinary Form mass doesn't sound like mine at all. Clapping? Contemporary music? Applause? I guess ours are more traditional. I've never been to a Latin mass; I had imagined it would be the same as the Ordinary, only in a different language. But I've been told there are significant differences. I don't know why.
ReplyDeleteI've argued this with other Catholics, but I feel mass should be in the vernacular. I guess I don't have an opinion on the form but I believe that it is paramount that worshipers understand it all. Afterall, the original mass was in Greek, not Latin. Latin was the vernacular of the western half of the Roman Empire, so it was clear that the vernacular is what early church fathers were after. I've also kidded that when we get to heaven, mass will not be in English, Latin, nor Greek. Jesus will hold it as the last supper in Aramaic. They will hand out Rosetta Stone Aramaic guides as you enter the pearlie gates. ;)
Welsh is the language of heaven! Or so I've been told. :)
ReplyDeleteI had thought that on this blog we were avoiding Liturgical issues! That said I expect attendance at Mass is paramount to us in whatever form we choose. The New Translation goes some way to giving an accurate translation from the Latin. I very much like the Ordinary Form of Mass. However I am happy to attend the EF too.
ReplyDeleteNo Marion..Irish is the language of heaven! lol
ReplyDeleteBoth forms please to keep everybody happy.
ReplyDeleteI think many converts would not have come over without the Ordinary Form and perhaps Joan's present church is unusual, (holding hands?)
English is the language of heaven BUT only if spoken with a Northern accent. (:
pparently I have a "Brummagum" accent according to one of our authors!
ReplyDeleteErr "apparently!"
ReplyDeleteI posted a long reply to this, but Blogger crashed me out!! I will try again later (this is really annoying!)
ReplyDeleteWell as a speaker of English who lives in Wales, I think we shall all hear and speak in Heaven in our own Tongue.and no translations will be necessary :) Babel fish anyone?
ReplyDeleteSecond try!
ReplyDeleteDear Joan, thank you for you honest and straightforward post. I would like to offer some thoughts.
First of all (and I only found this out myself s few years ago), when Vatican 11 closed we had not one, but two Roman Missals (containing the official form of the Roman Rite). Pope John XX111 who had called the Council had no intention of removing Latin from the Mass and did not like some of the work that was being done on the Liturgy. The 1962 Missal was authorized by him. Pope Paul V1 authorized another Missal - the "Missa Normativa" Missal, which came out first in Latin. The Vatican 11 document on the Liturgy does not envisage the domination of the vernacular over the Latin, so Pope Benedict's insistence that we allow Latin a proper place in our liturgy is in line with the actual Council document.
The new translation comes with the Pope's desire that we also look at the way we celebrate the Mass. it is clear from his writings and speeches that he favours a return to the "ad orientem" poistion of the priest during the main part of the Mass (Eucharistic Prayer). This means facing away from the people and towards the Cross. He also wants us to have more silence and to be more reverent.
The way you describe the vaernaulcar Mass in your own parish goes against the Pope;s view of how we should celebrate the liturgy. Where that kind of thing continues I expect we shall see more people seeking out the Latin Rite.
The silence during the Canon of the Mass in the 1962 Rite is not a historical "mistake". In fact, in order to understand the liturgy correctly we need to see other forms of the ancient Christian liturgy - for example in the Orthodox churches or in the uniate Byzantine Rite, and even, perhaps the Armenian liturgy (one of the oldest) and the Coptic Rite (Liturgy of St. Mark). Only with some knowledge of these ancient rites can we see what the Roman Rite should look like. The 1962 rite needs reforming. I celebrate it myself from time to time and it is obvious that some things need to be changed or reformed.
Clearly for some time in the future we will continue to have two Missals and two rites in the western Church - the Latin and the vernacular "Ordinary" rite. We will have to see what the future holds.
Thanks for this Fr John..I am familiar with the Byzantine/eastern Rite as a member of Miles Jesu.The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is very moving.
ReplyDeleteCorrection to my post! ONE Latin Rite but two forms. Thanks for the correction Jackie (by email)
ReplyDeleteOh my, 12 responses! I was checking my dashboard and saw no comments, so I was surprised to come here to the blog and find 12. It will take me some time to read them all and respond, but I do want to respond to jacuelineparkes, I am sorry, I didn't know we were avoiding Liturgical issues here! You are free to delete this if you'd like, I didn't mean to break rules! My questions are merely from a sincere desire for understanding, that is all.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry Joan this post hasn't started any rows, in fact it's been an interesting and enlightening discussion, so it's staying!
ReplyDeleteWe just don't want to have any nasty confrontational posts about Liturgical matters and this isn't one.
Your original post was nice and interesting and the answers good humoured and informative that's what we are here for! If anyone disagrees please post and we can review the matter.
PS. Jackie asked me to reply to this as she has stuff to do this pm, so don't worry we have conferred and it's fine,
ReplyDeleteJoan and Jacqui and diddley
ReplyDeleteYesterday I took a ninety-year old neighbour to Mass. She had never been to a Catholic service "because it's Latin isn't it and I won't know what to do".
"Come and see", I said.
We had a very special time and she felt at home.
She will be coming again "for a blessing" and to light a candle to "dear Mary".
The service was not the strange, remote experience she expected having lived through the decades of mistrust between Catholics and Protestants.
I am steering clear of Church politics here, but I doubt if she would have wanted to return to a TLM, not yet anyway! I'll take her to one later. She may feel equally at home. Lots do. x
Thank you Fr Abberton, jacquelineparkes, diddleymaz, and Maddy for your responses. I would love to hear the Mass celebrated in Welsh some day! Fr Abberton, thank you for your response, I see I have a lot of church history reading to do! I was received into the Church in 2006 and have only experienced the Novus Ordo Mass, and so I was terribly excited and happy to have this chance to participate in a Latin Mass that goes back in history of the Church that I have grown to love with all my heart. I have been confused about what to do in regards to my own parish, there are many things done well there, but as I said, some liturgical abnormalities (or abuses) that are deeply troubling to me and have caused me to attend mass at another parish nearby. I will probably only make the longer trip to the Latin Mass once a month, I truly found it a profoundly enriching experience. I would love to have the English translation from that Latin/English Missal brought into our home parishes. Thank you again all for you kind replies.
ReplyDeleteDiddleymaz, just saw your recent comments after posting my last comment...thank you so much, I was a bit distraught to think I had caused a stir! What you say is exactly the spirit in which I wrote my post, I love the Church and never intend to cause controversy of any kind. thank you again for understanding and clarifying.
ReplyDeleteMolly, I definitely understand where your neighbor is coming from! I avoided visiting Catholic churches for years, years! because I was afraid I wouldn't know what to do or understand what was going on. I did think about that yesterday during the Latin Mass, and one thought is now people who want the Latin Rite can seek it out, but the Novus Ordo Mass, when celebrated with beauty and truth, is welcoming and spiritually enriching, I know this from experience as a convert. :)
ReplyDeleteBy the way Joan, you have a well-designed blog
ReplyDeleteYou went to a low mass. (This was not supposed to be the main mass that was said pre-Vatican II but it became the norm in the US.) Yes many parishes do the Low Latin Tridentine Mass now instead of the high mass and no in the low mass you were not supposed to be able to hear the priest.
ReplyDeleteTo answer your questions it's supposed to be much much closer than it is today. The reason it is so different is because people (mostly the clergy at the beginning) Didn't truly follow what Vatican II said. Many felt that they would be disobediant and most got away with it. As time went on more and more disobedience occurred until the NO morphed into an almost unrecognizable image of the mass.
Their are many things that contributed to this but I won't go into details about it. Your N.O. seems to be one of those way off in liturgical abuse camp. I personally prefer very traditional masses. When possible I attend an Anglican Use Catholic mass. It's very traditional and is still in English. So I get the best of both worlds.
Thank you, Father, I have been enjoying putting my blog together, now I just have to learn how to write well!
ReplyDeleteBaroness, thank you, you're comment is very helpful. I thought there must be a reason the priest did not use a microphone. I understand what you say about disobedience. It is a difficult problem and I thank everyone who has commented in helping me sort this out in my particular situation.